Nurturing an Early-Stage Proprietary Product

Building a brand through a proprietary product may very well be the future of eCommerce for small businesses. Dave Bayless, of Human Scale Business, knows firsthand what it takes to grow and scale early-stage companies or inventions. He has a wealth of experience both on the private equity side and as a consultant helping entrepreneurs build their brands.

We talk about the challenges that early-stage businesses face when scaling, including design, operations, and securing financing. We also discuss whether it’s possible to build a highly profitable, niche market product and stay small and nimble. Join us as Dave shares his expertise on a host of topics that entrepreneurs in the early stage of brand or product development should focus on.

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(With your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Dave Bayless of Human Scale Business)

Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast. The show dedicated to helping high six and seven figure entrepreneurs build amazing online companies and incredible lives. I’m your host and fellow eCommerce entrepreneur, Andrew Youderian.

Hey you guys. It’s Andrew here, and welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in. Today on the show, I’ve got Dave Bayless from Human Scale Business who’s a local Bozemanite here in my community, a man I’ve got to know recently. Wanted to have on Dave, because he has a tremendous amount of experience dealing with companies and brands in their early stages. Companies that have developed something proprietary, proprietary product, and they’re trying to grow and scale that. Both from the investment side, he has a background in private equity investing in these types of companies, and also from the consulting side, that’s what he does now. He works with these companies to really help them grow. He knows the challenges early brands face both from an operational standpoint, a design standpoint, a financing standpoint, and we talk about all of these things. We discuss working capital, when to bring on investors or when it makes more sense to finance, and we also talk about if it’s possible for a brand to stay lean today when it’s… there’s a lot more involved, instead of just reselling, doing all of the brand development, the manufacturing and the reselling in eCommerce. Can you stay lean and nimble, or do you have to invest in a bigger team because it’s more complex to be able to build that out today? I enjoyed really digging in and hearing from his experience and I hope you enjoy the discussion.

Dave, you’ve got a lot of background in quite a few different areas. One of those was Evergreen. Evergreen Capital Partners, I believe.

Dave: Evergreen Innovation Partners.

Andrew: Innovation Partners, excuse me. Just in a nutshell, what did you do there? What was your role and what were customer takeaways from your time there?

Dave: Evergreen Innovation Partners, EIP, was built to be a bridge between individual inventors or innovators and often times that took the form of a very small company, and large established brands of household products, Proctors and Gambles, the Cloroxs, this is the word. The fundamental insight was that individuals are really much better than big organizations at sensing opportunity. They have got empathy, they’re embedded in the situation and they’re often the ones who come up with the greatest ideas. Some subset of those people can actually articulate that in the form of a product or an invention.

Big companies, on the other hand, have the advantages of large companies. They’ve already got built distribution, they understand how to do manufacturing, they’ve got established brands. The idea was to go find opportunities in the form of these nascent companies or early stage inventions, build them up, protect them, figure out how to manufacture, and then sell them and license them to very large, established, companies.

Can A Small Business Survive?

Andrew: I think a lot of people myself included, look at the future of eCommerce especially for smaller businesses and see reselling existing products becoming less and less of a viable path. Then building up a brand oftentimes through a proprietary product is a much more defensible position. If that’s the case, how likely is it or how possible is it for some of these brands, maybe some of the ones you previously worked with, to be able to do that while staying small. Is that possible, or is it something because you think about the role of an inventor or a creator on the product side is very different from the role of somebody who understands…often understands business or eCommerce or marketing. Is that based on just kind of those realities? Do businesses have to get bigger in order to be able to survive?

Dave: It’s possible to carve out a small niche and defend it and become profitable. That isn’t to say it’s easy at all. One of the realities is, is the fixed costs of operating a company that designs and makes and sells consumer products, for example, is lower than it’s ever been to do it at some sort of scale. You’ve got the capacity through eCommerce to reach out to a niche audience globally, but it requires an entrepreneur that’s almost a renaissance man or woman. The ability to be very good at a lot of different things, and particularly good enough to understand when and where and how to outsource elements of business, all the while keeping fixed cost really, really, low. It’s possible to create $500,000, or $1 million topline niche product business, and be profitable, and have a life, and have something that could potentially last a long time and/or be sold over time, but it’s really demanding.

What to Outsource, What to Keep In-House

Andrew: What would be, in order of priority, the things that you would keep in-house, and the things that you could outsource? For example, I mean, let’s say, just take for the sake of argument you build the proprietory fan over here at our office. It’s an amazing new proprietary fan that you’re manufacturing. In order of difficulty, is it is easiest to outsource to try and stay nimble and small? Is it easiest to outsource the cad and the design work, the IP work, the eCommerce? Where should people, if they wanna build up a brand of…based around their own product, what should they keep in-house, and what should they outsource?

Dave: Well, in my experience it starts with a real deep understanding of the market and the application. The fundamental responsibility for product development lies with the founder of the company. Now, technical aspects of that in terms of doing cad and figuring out manufacturing related design, those are things that you’re gonna wanna engage specialist to help you do. Manufacturing is something that, I think ultimately is something that you outsource. The basic insight and the basic connection and understanding of the audience, really comes from the experience and the insight of the entrepreneur. The things that absolutely should be outsourced to the extent possible are all overhead related activities.

Again, it takes somebody that knows enough to ask really good questions about how to outsource your accounting, for instance, how to outsource your administration activities. Everything around the product and the innovation and the identity with and a connection to the customer really has to come with a founder. If you are trying to outsourced the invention, outsource the fundamental marketing direction, I think you’re gonna have a really difficult time.

Wholesaling Your Product

Andrew: Changing gears a little bit, in our first discussion, we were talking about wholesaling, and I don’t know how we got on the topic, but one thing I mentioned was, why do retailers today need wholesale channels? Why would they give up their margin when they can go direct to consumer? If they have a good product, there’s very little need for that. You made a compelling case for why wholesales can still be fairly important and an effective tool. Could you touch on that a little bit?

Dave: Sure. You know, it’s a really good question, because what we see with changes in technology and changes with business practices is what…A small guy named John Hagel wrote a press in article years ago about the unbundling and re-unbundling of business functions, including things like marketing. When you think about a marketing distribution channel, it’s really about three things that they do. They do marketing. They get across your messaging. They get feedback from customers including as thing as mechanical as processing returns. They help with logistics, and they help with the transactional aspects of business, they’re actually collecting money from the ultimate buyer. Well, when you think about the transactional function or logistical functions, traditional wholesalers aren’t really necessary for those kinds of roles, which leaves marketing.

The ability to gain insight into customers and how they actually demand product, and also getting the word out to them and persuading people to become aware of a product, and ultimately to buy the product, and building trust, and building customer relationships. I think that’s where there’s still potentially a role for specialist retailers, because when you’re doing all this manufacturing and product design, and you’re financing the build-up of inventory, and you’re trying to keep fixed costs low, that’s a lot. Many of those people don’t necessarily have sales and marketing backgrounds. A great one on one in the trade show environment, for instance, but trying to think and execute retail, that’s a big job. I think retailers if they focus on actually that function, can probably earn their way. I mean, if you think of margin there’s nothing more than performance-oriented commission. Are there models today where specialist retailers can accelerate the growth of niche manufacturers in a mutually beneficial way? I think the answer is gotta be, “Yes.”

Andrew: Do you think there’s something that’ll continue to be the case for the next decade plus?

Dave: In some form or fashion, yes. Indirect distribution has had a really, long run. In eCommerce you know better than I about the specialist knowledge that comes from practicing the craft and the trade and the art of direct consumer sales online. It’s difficult. Unlike a Main Street store you can’t see people interact or fail to interact with your product. It’s very difficult to do through the interface of the web. As a manufacturer, being able to partner with somebody who cares about that craft and is willing to share the insights that come from that day in, day out interaction with customers, I think it’s going to have value and for people who can coordinate that well and do it economically where both sides win, I think are gonna be more successful in the marketplace, and push out people that aren’t as good. It’s a tough market.

Using Wholesale to Grow

Andrew: What about when somebody’s built up a brand and they’ve established that name recognition and that trust. Perhaps they use the wholesale channels early on for marketing, to build a relationship, but they’ve gotten to the point they’re a household name. Have you ever seen a company or a brand use wholesale early on, and then forsake it to go direct to consumer to be able to capture that margin back?

Dave: Yes, and a lot of it is indirect experience. There’s a handful of cases that I’ve seen it up close and personal. The pattern I see most frequently for niche product makers is that they launch a product and they put up a website, because they can. They soon find that it’s a lot harder than it looks building a brand online. The sales tend to grow in an s-shaped fashion, and that first part of the S can be a very, very, long path indeed.

When faced with that, they tend to be compelled to go out and look for wholesale customers. Ultimately though, they swing back for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it’s the margin, sometimes it’s the wholesale. Customers really aren’t providing a value added service, but they tended to go around that path. What I see is really emerging is being a lot more purposeful about the prospect of really being selective and strategic about the wholesale partners are, and those who can really bring marketing insight and marketing value to the table, rather than just representing somebody can buy a few hundred of your gizmos early on when you’re having a tough time selling one or two at a time on your website.

Andrew: Because it seems like it could be… It’s a fairly risky move, right? Like if you decide that you’ve sold traditionally through wholesale, and you decide, “Hey, we’re gonna take a crack at it, we’re gonna cut off some of our suppliers.” If it doesn’t work out, you can come back and maybe they’ll restock your stuff. There’s a good chance I would guess, some of those suppliers or those retailers are gonna say, “Hey, no thanks. You kinda burned us once before.” Is that a fair bet?

Dave: Oh, absolutely. For somebody who can really bring value to that, especially that front part of the sales curve, needs to be thinking about, “How do I win?” You know, “How do we both win”? I think is the key. I don’t mean that in a kumbaya kind of way, I mean in a really mutually beneficial way to address the topic head on. If we’re successful, how do both parties win? Maybe there’s a unique or a proprietary relationship where the wholesaler has some component of the products or some part of the market for some period of time. There’s bio provisions, and presume… potentially those could go either way. It’s not just that the product maker may, in a sense, buy-back the distribution, but there’s nothing to say that a…somebody is really capable marketing a product can’t say, “Hey, I think I can really make this go. What would you take for your product business?” I think we’re gonna see a lot of sort of specialized, sort of micro MNA emerge out of this new field and these new kinds of relationships.

Finding the Right Partners

Andrew: If there is someone who’s really good at marketing and they’re interested in partnering with people who are building products, brand related products, or there could be a great relationship like that. Where would they go to find them? Is the best place just to keep your eye open? Are there certain incubators, or where would people go to try to connect with people like that who had a branded product, but were really struggling on the marketing side? Or is it just… Is it not…it is not an easy place. Maybe you just have to really do a lot of research on the web.

Dave: Well, in my broader experiences looking for deal flow if you will, there’s nothing magic about it. It’s a fair amount of hard work, but one can and one should be systematic about it. I think for the people that just sort of keep their eyes and ears open for a good deal with no real focus, they’re unlikely to really be in a position to develop the relationships necessary to close an attractive deal. Ultimately you need to focus. You need to become part of the community, whatever that is. If your interests lie in household products, focus on household products. You can go to trade shows people will be there. Watch where people are financing.

One of the new emerging forms of financing for these kinds of companies is banks continue to retreat to larger and larger and larger businesses are crowdfunding sites. Who’s raising money? Why are they raising money? How do you strike up a relationship today recognizing that the opportunity for a transaction may be months, or even in many cases, years down the road? How do you put yourself in the position to have that kind of patience?

Good Versus Bad Vendors

Andrew: Backtracking just a little bit. We were talking about building a wholesale channel, why it may be valuable? You had made some comments earlier in one of our discussions about the difference between being a good vendor and a bad vendor. Some people don’t realize that there’s a lot of your success with your wholesale partners can come in how you…what kind of vendor you are. What are some of those things that if people do wanna take a wholesale approach and bring people on board as retailers for their product that they should be thinking about to make their distribution network want to do business with them? What are some of the, maybe, things that people do that really irk their partners?

Dave: Well, it’s pretty fundamental. If you’re trying to develop something beyond just a transactional relationship, which I think is called for in many of these cases where you don’t have the scale or the scope either as a wholesaler or as a producer to be purely transactional. If you’re going to spend the time and effort it takes to develop a relationship, my sense is to make it deeper.

A guy that I partnered with back in my private equity days taught me a lesson about selling first before you buy. What he meant by that is to establish your value to your counterpart before you become concerned about what’s in it for you. It’s a really useful guideline I think for developing mutually beneficial sustainable relationships.

As a product developer, what is it that the wholesale partner needs? They need reliability, they need service, they obviously need a product. Ultimately, they need a competitive price, but if it’s a great product and they’ve got… there’s limited distribution or they have some sort of advantageous distribution, there a lot less likely to beat you up on price. They need a margin that’s going to be…allow them to be as good as they can be.

First step toward being a good vendor is to recognize that if you wanna develop a relationship with a wholesale partner, you have to treat him like a partner. You have to be concerned about their success because if they can’t succeed, they’re not likely to help you succeed or be able to…be in a position of helping you succeed. It’s not for everybody. It’s not for every relationship. You can’t have a deep relationship with everybody you know. Most of your relationships are gonna be transactional, but for those key ones, really think about what you can do for them. Can you offer them a special product or a special product for a period of time? Can you make sure that when things go bump in the night, that you are really jumping on the problem and solving it. Not just looking at your wholesale or somebody is gonna somehow passively unsure your success by making an occasional order. If you treat them like a transaction, they’re gonna behave like a transaction.

Definitions of Working Capital

Andrew: I wanna shift gears a little bit into cash flow, and one of things you mentioned earlier and I’ve seen from experience chatting with other store owners as well, especially people that stock an inventory or manufacture especially, is cash flow problems, capital constraints, and working capital issues. I wanna get into that, but quickly before we do, for people who may not know, can you define what working capital is and what the difference between working capital and permanent working capital is?

Dave: Okay. An attempt to demystify a lot of the financing jargon. Working capital just arises because we tend to have to pay for stuff before we can sell it. There’s a delay. That delay manifests itself on our accounting balance sheet as accounts receivable, inventory on hand, and then we subtract out accounts payable. Those delays work to our benefit. Networking capital is simply accounts receivable plus inventory minus accounts payable. If you take that number and divide it by your sales you’ll have some sort of percentage, and a typical percentage might be 20% or 25% for companies and other kinds that we’re talking about.

That relationship is fairly constant over time. If you have $100,000 of sales you’ve got, roughly $20,000 of net working capital. If you have $1 million of sales, you have about $200,000 of networking capital. The point being, that networking capital has to be financed somehow through accumulated profits or some sort of external financing. If we grow slowly, we can finance our working capital through accumulating profits. We call bootstrapping. If we grow rapidly we can, because our cash flow margin, or profit, or in sales might be 15%, but our networking capital to sales ratio might be 20% or 25%, we have a gap.

What happens is people don’t anticipate the cash cost of success. They start growing and it feels great because their sales numbers are going up and to the right on the graph, but they get shocked because their cash is going down just as steeply in the other direction. We have to plan for success especially when we’re in businesses that have inventory in accounts receivable, and very little in the way of current liabilities, because we’re very likely going to have to reach outside of our company at least in the short term to finance our growth over time.

Now, the notion of permanent networking capital is just a fact that as we grow, our networking capital doesn’t go to zero. It’s like layers of sand that build up over…like sediment over time. We don’t get that cash back or unlock that cash until our sales actually decline. We shouldn’t try to finance our rapid sustained growth with a series of 180 day merchant cash advances, for example. Short term financing on a long term need is a mismatch that will bite you.

Considering an Investor

Andrew: What should people be doing, two part question here. What should people be doing if they…hopefully they get ahead of this, they get ahead of the ball on this, that they have the financing before they need. As kind of a sub-question, when does it make sense to go the financing route through a bank, a line of credit, something like that, versus bringing on an investor? Because obviously an investor can provide some of that capital that’s needed but it comes with obviously giving up part of the business. When does it make sense for the entrepreneur to consider that investment or say differently, when can an investor bring in something of value that is more beneficial than…that makes up for the equity they’re giving up versus a bank loan?

Dave: Well, the honest answer is it’s very situationally dependent. There’s some general things that we know about. One is, if you’ve got a very uncertain business, means there might be a lot of upside, but it’s not predictable at all, you don’t want to be layering on a lot debt. On the flip side, equity can be expensive in a lot of different ways. You pay for that flexibility. There’s issues of control, often pressure to create an exit event, to create some liquidity, to buy-back your outside financing, your outside equity financing, and people that take additional risk strangely enough tend to want to have a voice in your business.

I would say in the context of business as we’re talking about, outside equity is not going to be a real option outside of friends and family for most of these businesses. To raise professional equity, institutional kind of equity, you really need to have a business that can grow to be a big company to warrant their interest.

A lot of us who aren’t wealthy tend not to have wealthy friends and family. Practically speaking that isn’t always an option available to us even if we’re willing to deal with some of the complexities of having friends and family as equity investors which leaves debt as just a general category. One of the challenging realities is that bank debt is becoming harder and harder to obtain for small business for lots and lots of reasons. If you’ve got a strong personal balance sheet and you’re willing to put that to work for your business, you can get back that through personal guarantees or your own personal real estate. Standalone bank financing for small business is very difficult to get, which is leaving us now with…The good news is there’s new emergent forms. A lot of it has some sort of crowdfunding component to it.

Andrew: You’re talking about sites like Kickfurther, for example.

Dave: It could be Kickfurther, or even Kickstarter initially, Able Lending, even not for profit organizations like Kiva can be ways to sort of climb the ladder of financing. One of the realities of these…any of these sites though is that they take time. It requires planning and it…We’re talking months and sometimes years to set the stage to get ever increasing amounts of financing to fund your growing business.

Where things come apart is if you put yourself in the position of needing money tomorrow, and at that point a lot of this becomes theoretical, you get the money that’s available to you and pay the price and incur the consequences. If you wanna maximize your choices and, going back to our earlier conversation, giving yourself the ability to create a business that reflects your objectives, you have to think strategically. You have to think more about what happens when I succeed. What does the next step look like, and start reverse engineering. What kind of relationships do I need to be engaging in today? A year from today, I can go to them and say you know, “Remember when I told you I was gonna do X? Well, I did X, now I’m gonna do Y. Do you wanna be a part that?”

Biggest Opportunity for Product Creators Today

Andrew: Everything we’ve talked about and the experiences that you’ve had seeing brands and proprietary businesses, proprietary product based businesses, where do you see the most opportunity today for product creators and eCommerce entrepreneurs?

Dave: I think we’re going to look back at this time 10 to 15 years from now is a little bit of a golden era. I don’t wanna minimize for a moment the transformational impact of the lowering of barriers to entry to these niche products. I mean, when you think what’s happened for good and for ill in the music industry, in the art world, in the brewpub business, we’re seeing similar parallels rippling through the rest of the economy. For those who have the insight and the motivation and enjoy the prospect of keeping lot of plates spinning simultaneously, and really relish the notion of becoming a master of a lot of different tasks. We can create businesses today that are rich and complex at tiny scales, but doing things we want to do, we’re not making Acme products, we’re creating products we really care about. I think the opportunity exists for those people who love that challenge to create companies that aren’t enormous. You know, hundreds of thousands of dollars or million to 2 million that really are allow them to express themselves as creative people and also earn an attractive living. Those who relish the challenge, I think, are the ones that are really gonna have great success over the next 10 or 15 years.

Dave’s Business for Microenterprises

Andrew: The business you have now is Human Scale Business. Can you tell us a little bit about what is that, what are you trying to do, and who are you best serving or who’s…who would be an ideal client for that business?

Dave: What Laura Black and I call Human Scale Business is small businesses, or the founders of small businesses that make unique product, sold primarily direct to consumer online. These are microenterprises. There may be one or two people in your organization and maybe no other employees even part-time employees, people who have figured out how to outsource the components of their businesses that aren’t strategic. These are really complex businesses. There’s a bad habit a lot of us have. I’m thinking of small businesses as sort of business light, or business dumbed down, but these are extraordinarily complex businesses with global supply chains and global distribution channels and the application of lots of technology. They’re complex, small, and they’re also businesses that have lots of interdependencies.

When you introduce a physical manufactured and distributed product, you add a great deal of complexity to your business including, as we discussed, the likely need for external financing in a marketplace that hasn’t really recognized fully the opportunities in this world. What Human Scale Business exists to do is one connect people to each other so peer networks to tap into the real expertise on the ground that’s in the minds of their fellow travelers. What Laura and I can help is probably most clearly presented in sort of the problems of success, the so-called high class problems of growth of inventory management, supply chain management, going to the next stage of design and really designing for manufacturability and logistics.

Thinking through how to outsource some of these elements that you start on your kitchen table but you’ve gotta move to a third party. How do you engage those people? How do you assess them? How do you manage them? We do that on a consulting basis and over time we’ll be new doing more course based content development and premium events.

Andrew: Where will be the best place for people to find out more about you and everything you just talked about?

Dave: Humanscalebusiness.org is our website, and we’ve got a free online network called network.humanscalebusiness.org for people that are directly interested in connecting with peers.

The Lightning Round

Andrew: Dave, one last thing I wanna do before we wrap up. It’s the lightning round. It’s just a fun, very off topic, section where we ask questions…very similar questions of almost all of our guests. Feel free to give as much or as little detail as you like, but yeah, as far you dive into that. How much money is enough? What is your number where if you have X amount in the bank you just…you’d feel very satisfied, very at ease.

Dave: I’m good now.

Andrew: Good now.

Andrew: What did you wanna be when you were a kid?

Dave: Probably a fighter pilot.

Andrew: Fighter pilot? How many hours per week would you say you work?

Dave: All of them.

Andrew: What do you think about in the shower?

Dave: The long tail.

Andrew: What do you mean by that?

Dave: The power of law distribution, the fat head, and the long tail. Humans Scale Businesses are in long tail. The 99% are in the long tail. The 95% of businesses less than five people are on the long tail. The opportunities and the challenges are the long tail distribution haunt me.

Andrew: If you knew the world was gonna end… not end but if you knew…something was gonna bring upon the end of civilization, collapse of governments and countries across the world. You knew that was gonna happen in 25 years. What would you bet would cause that if you had to pick one thing?

Dave: When we lose or ability to empathize with others, I think we see the unbundling of civilization. We’re experiencing some of it now.

Andrew: Obviously, you’re an entrepreneur. You love what you do. Let’s assume for the sake of argument you couldn’t be an entrepreneur, you couldn’t run your business, but you could work for any company in the world in any role for that company. Which company would you work for?

Dave: Probably Kiva.

Andrew: Kiva? That’s the kind of the microfinance lending company?

Dave: Yeah.

Andrew: What do you spend most of your discretionary money on? Maybe a better way to say that is if you have an area or two where you spend disproportionate relative to your other expenditures, could be on a hobby, could be on anything really, what would that be?

Dave: Skiing.

Andrew: Skiing?

Dave: It’s what it is.

Andrew: Very nice. If you could live anywhere in the world with cost on option or not a factor, your community not a factor. Assuming all year your housing and the cost of living was not something you had to worry about, and your community was transplanted to where you were, where would you live?

Dave: Probably Shanghai. It’s the epicenter of probably the most fundamental change in human history right now.

Andrew: Really? I usually notice the land you’re on but, expand on that a little more, if you would please. Like what is it just…What is at Shanghai?

Dave: Well, for those who haven’t been to China, it’s impossible to convey the scale of change that’s occurring there. I’ve tried to explain to people what Shanghai is like, and I use weak analogies like, “Take Chicago and stack seven Chicagos end to end and turn up the volume.” There have been more people that have moved to the cities in China than it live in the United States, just in the last few years. To not understand or attempt to understand what’s happening in China is to be ignorant of a great deal of what’s happening in the world right now.

Andrew: Fascinating. Interesting. What’s one of the most generous things someone has done for you?

Dave: When I left the banking business, when I was at Citibank, I joined a brand new private equity firm as the very junior partner of three and my partners were overly generous in terms of the ownership that I was able to get and the role that I was able to play in that firm, especially in retrospect it’s hard to understand why they were so generous to me.

Andrew: Finally, last question. Let’s assume for sake argument you’re facing jail time, and you have two options. You can either flee the country, and if you do choose that option, you’ll know that you’ll be caught and you can bring over your immediate family with you to live anywhere else in the world. If you do flee, you also have to give up all of your assets. The alternative is to stay in the United States, serve your jail time, and then you can go ahead and continue on with your life as normal. What is the maximum out of jail time you would serve before you decided, “Okay, a day after this, I’m out of here, I’m fleeing.

Dave: Life.

Andrew: You’d serve a life sentence?

Dave: I don’t know how I would face my family if I ran, especially in the course of my life how I’ve talked about people like Nelson Mandela as people that I looked up to. If I was facing that situation, I would hope that I would have the courage to not run.

Andrew: Let me put a little twist on it. Let’s say you were falsely accused. You were accused of something that you did not do. Any incarceration would be unjust.

Dave: I think doubly the case then.

Andrew: Why so?

Dave: Principle without the willingness to face the consequences is cowardice. I hope I don’t find myself in that position. I hope I don’t have to test my words.

Andrew: Fair enough. Well, Dave, thank you for coming out. It’s been a great show. It’s good to know you and I appreciate you taking the time and if…What Dave talked about with the Humans Go Business is something that sounds interesting to you, if you’re in that position where you have a product and you’re interested in scaling up and you could use some of the help with some of the services and skills that Dave mentioned, humanscalebusiness.org is the website to check out. Dave, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for making the time.

Dave: Thanks for having me.

Andrew: Want to connect with and learn from other proven eCommerce entrepreneurs? Join us in the eCommerceFuel Private Community. It’s our tight knit vetted group, for store owners with at least a quarter million dollars in annual sales.

You can learn more and apply for membership at ecommercefuel.com.Thanks so much to our podcast producer Laura Serino for all of her hard work in making the show possible, and to you for tuning in. Thank you for listening. That will do it for this week. Looking forward to seeing you again next Friday.

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