Our guest today is a man who’s long overdue to make an appearance on the show, Mr. Lars Hundley, a long time eCommerce entrepreneur and a prolific eCommerceFuel forum member. Lars has the distinction of having the most number of up-votes for his contributions throughout the entire history of the community.
Lars is known for his in-depth experience along with his incredible source of comic relief in our private community. Lars weighs in on his experience with Kickstarter, Amazon, creating proprietary products, as well as a plethora of other eCommerce-related topics.
Andrew: Welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast, the show dedicated to helping high six and seven-figure entrepreneurs build amazing online companies and incredible lives. I’m your host and fellow eCommerce entrepreneur, Andrew Youderian.
Hey, hey guys, it’s Andrew here and welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in to today’s show. And today on the podcast, a man who’s long overdue to make an appearance, Mr. Lars Hundley, a longtime eCommerce entrepreneur and prolific forum member, community member. In fact, he holds the distinction of having the most number of upvotes for his contributions throughout the entire history of the community. So, a well-known name if you’re a part of the eCommerceFuel community.
And we talked about a lot of things. We talked about Kickstarter and Amazon and creating proprietary products and all sorts of different things. He’s got a pretty deep depth of experience that we discuss. And he’s also an incredible source of comic relief in the forum apart from his e-commerce chops. And we do some trivia at the end to see how well he can remember some of things he may or may not have shed light on in terms of funny stories and comments and things like that. It’s a fun little game we play with him. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and jump into today’s discussion with Lars.
Andrew: Lars, your company was an Inc. 5000 company in ’08, ’09 and 2010. Can you give me just what was happening in your business both operationally in terms of how were you growing so quickly and then especially how were you growing so quickly coming off of the heels of the 2008 financial crisis when things were definitely not super robust?
Lars: Well, it’s funny because actually the Inc. 5000, it’s a backwards-looking thing, so the 2010 one was really based on 2009 numbers. So it was by then actually that we were starting to crater. That’s why I’ve never been in the Inc. 5000 after that because we haven’t seen growth like that since then. I think part of the reason for our rapid growth back then, it was like everything magical came together all at once. We took over the importing of a product that had been one of our top sellers for years and then we were wholesaling it to everybody else in the country.
And everything green and eco-friendly was really in a bubble leading up to about 2008, 2009 is where that started to burst before everybody started making eco-friendly claims and it became meaningless. And so we were really into our niche on top of it and we had great products. And Amazon wasn’t really selling products like that yet, they were still more books and electronics and hadn’t become the everything store as much yet like they are today. So it was sort of a weird perfect storm in our favor that was giving us awesome growth and it was a cool time.
Andrew: How do you get listed for that? Is that something where they just find out? I’m guessing, do you volunteer the information, do you apply? How did you get listed in the Inc. 5000 or the Inc. 500?
Lars: Somebody suggested it to us, I can’t remember exactly. But basically, there’s an application process and then you put all your numbers in there and then they ask you for basic questions to make sure it’s legit. But more or less, I suppose you could scam it if you wanted to lie about it, but what would be the point? It’s complicated where you put in all your numbers. And so, a lot of times, the people that do well if you’re starting on a small number, it looks a little better, but I think there’s a minimum number you have to be at before you can even apply.
Andrew: So stepping back even to the beginning, can give me a sense…because right now you run a couple, among other things, but a couple of main sites, Clean Air Gardening and Yoyoplay, a couple of your big sites and brands. But stepping back before that, how did you get into this e-commerce thing?
Lars: Well, Clean Air Gardening, I launched in 1998 and Yoyoplay, I think ’99. I was always interested in internet stuff and I was in journalism and then PR in the early to mid-90s. And I went from journalism to doing PR for a web development company that was building websites for everybody else and I thought it was cool. We were watching all these other companies that were selling stuff online and I was thinking, “What can I sell?” And it just so happened I was renting a house and I had to mow my own lawn and I was way too cheap to buy a super expensive Toro gas for a rent house. And so I went to one of the Big Box stores, I don’t remember if it was Lowe’s or Home Depot or what. And way down hidden in the bottom shelf someplace was an old-fashioned push lawnmower that I didn’t realize at the time even existed. Now, I bought it because it was super cheap and I took it home and it worked. It really mowed the lawn and it wasn’t that hard to use. I was like, “Wow, nobody even knows about these things”.
So ironically, I got fired from that PR job for the web development company and I moved to Colorado. I was freelancing and I had a part-time job and I was making a living that way and I thought, “Well, this could be the thing”. And it turned out that there’s a guy, I was living in Boulder, there’s a guy in Fort Collins who was importing this really nice, it was the Mercedes of push mowers, the Brill push mower. And I was only 45 minutes away from him and so I called him on the phone and he was actually open to working with an online seller because he was primarily selling online as well. And I drove to his house with my car and I actually bought the first, I think, 10 lawnmowers, and crammed them in the trunk and backseat of my Volvo, and drove them back to my apartment, and sold them out of my apartment that way.
Andrew: Did you come to actually become passionate about the niche of clean-air gardening and eco-friendly, or was that something that was just a byproduct of using that lawnmower, seeing it was useful? What came first? Did you become passionate about it after you came into the niche practically?
Lars: Yeah. I was a little bit excited about the niche because I had used a product like that myself but I didn’t know anything about gardening. I was a bachelor living in an apartment and I really didn’t know that much about lawn care either because I was living in an apartment. So yeah, I would say that that’s exactly the way it worked, is that I had the niche and then over time I became the “expert” and learned it as I went. That was a long time ago and so I know a lot about that subject now and I really enjoy it. I’ve got a garden in my own backyard and it’s interesting that you do learn to love things that you might not have imagined would have been your niche in the beginning.
Andrew: But for Yoyoplay…you’d always been someone who enjoyed yoyo’s, right? That was something that was born out of passion versus a practical approach, is that right?
Lars: Yeah. That one is kind of a funny story too. That one I didn’t actually launch myself. I launched it with some friends of mine. They owned a comic book shop in Houston and when I launched my site and it was selling, I was like, “Man, you guys got to sell online. This online thing, there’s something behind it. You’ve got to figure out something to do”. And they didn’t want to do comic books because there’s a lot of comic books on eBay and there’s no margins in it. And so they were like, “What can we do?” And that was when I remembered that we were in high school one summer, I think it was after our senior year in high school. This is how nerdy I am. We were at the local grocery store and we saw these Duncan yo-yos at the checkout and we all bought them, mostly as a joke. And we were playing around in the driveway of one of our parents’ homes and we’re saying who could do the most tricks and we totally nerded out and got into it. And I bought this book, it’s The Klutz Yo-yo Book, it’s like Palo Alto I think is the name of the…because there’s a clutch juggling book. But there’s also a yo-yo book.
I bought the book and I was learning all the tricks so I could stay ahead of my friends and we totally got into it that summer. We were all trying to outyo-yo each other. And so that’s how we came to, “Hey, what about yo-yoing?” and it’s awesome. I love that one.
Andrew: My first business, Right Channel Radio, started completely on a practical basis. And I think historically I’ve always been a little bit more of the mindset, “Hey, passion’s great, hobbies are great, but when you’re looking at a business, take much more of a practical approach and a pragmatic approach.” It’s fantastic if you can find a business that fills both a passionate need and a pragmatic need, but that’s a pretty rare thing. But I feel like as Amazon’s getting bigger and as the distribution problem with e-commerce has gotten solved more and more, it’s about having a unique product, a proprietary product, a story behind your product, that it’s getting more important to actually be really invested in the products that you sell. I’ve been slowly changing my mindset toward the passion versus practicality in terms of e-commerce. You had both, you have the yo-yo, which you absolutely loved, and you had Clean Air Gardening, which came more out of just a need. Was one of the two a lot easier to get motivated about, to get traction on? Do you think that going forward that passion is going to be increasingly more important?
Lars: That’s a tough question and I’m not sure what my answer is, because to a certain extent, eCommerce for me, it’s like playing a video game in that I do this and then watch my dashboard, the sales numbers go up or I’d do this and, “Oh, this makes this happen.” And I like e-commerce itself. And so, to a certain extent, it almost doesn’t matter what I’m selling as long as I’m not selling junk. I want to sell something that I’m not embarrassed about or that’s shoddy.
So, on the one hand, no, I don’t think it’s necessary to be in love with your product, but on the other hand, I do enjoy having my own brands. For example, one of the products that I’m actually most excited about is not a yo-yo, it’s a compost bin. And that’s a compost bin that I designed with the help of a guy that works for me and then we hired a CAD designer to design the mold for it, that worked at a local injection molding company. It was expensive. It’s a large product so the upfront costs were almost $80,000 for the mold, but I like composting. I actually have a Kindle book about composting that’s pretty well-reviewed on Amazon that I published several years ago and it just sits out there.
Andrew: What’s the name of the book?
Lars: It’s got a long title because I was into keywords at the time. It’s called How to Compost Something: Everything You Need to Know About Composting and Nothing That You Don’t, or something vaguely along those lines, but How to Compost is part of the title. Anyway, that’s one of the products that I’m most excited about, because we really put a lot of effort into designing it. And then over the years, we’ve improved it where we keep seeing customer feedback and making improvements in the packaging, the instructions, the parts themselves. We’ve improved the stand that it stands on. We’ve improved the axle that it turns on, where it mixes the materials inside better. And so that’s one that I’m really proud of.
Andrew: How many products do you have that you’ve actually manufactured yourself across all your different lines versus things that you’re either white-labeling or reselling? I’m in the middle of creating a really pretty basic proprietary product and even just for one, it’s shocking how long it takes to get from concept to market.
Lars: Yeah. It’s frustrating, isn’t it? Because every time that you think of one, then it takes forever. And I’m looking forward to your podcast about what nightmare scenario came up with your first run and what you had to do to fix it. If you don’t have that podcast and it doesn’t happen to you, I’m going to be really angry and jealous if somehow you’ve managed to do a first production run of something perfectly. And then I’m going to call you and beg you to tell me what you did and how you made it work.
Andrew: Or more likely call me a liar, which would probably be accurate. If anybody will have problems, it’ll be me.
Lars: Well, I’ll be behind your back though.
Andrew: Oh, okay. Perfect.
Lars: But you know, it’s a fine line, what’s private-label, what’s proprietary product. When we work with manufacturing partners, I like to find product, they’re making something that already exists that I can make changes to. The thing that I did with the compost bin where we literally designed it from the ground up, I think it was risky. I knew that I could sell a compost bin because we sold a lot of compost here so in that aspect, it wasn’t risky. But that’s a lot of money up front to not even know if it was going to work once we made it.
And in fact, our first run, I did this giant email product launch and we sold hundreds of them. And it turned out that the plastic formulation was not quite strong enough because we’re using 100% recycled plastic.
The way we had formulated it, we had problems and we had to replace a ton of composters and it was expensive because we had already sold them at a giant discount because we wanted to launch big. And so it was tough. So even the things that you design from scratch that you think is going to be perfect, there could be problems with. So I like to find something now that a manufacturing partner has made something similar so that you know that there’s a background of success where you think they’re going to be able to do it right. And that way, it’s less risk on your first production run.
Andrew: And you’ve done a number of Kickstarter campaigns. I’m not sure if the composting product was a Kickstarter campaign, but you’ve launched proprietary products through Kickstarter, you’ve launched them just through your existing channels, whether be Amazon or your existing stores. What are your thoughts on using Kickstarter to launch a product? Obviously it works well for a lot of people, but having done it both ways, is it worth? On one hand, you’ve got the advantage of you can test the concept and you can get validation for the product before you show up the capital for it. But on the other hand, it’s a lot of work with managing campaigns, setting it up, marketing it. Has it been something that you’ve found to be a really great way to launch new products or is it more work sometimes than it’s worth?
Lars: Love Kickstarter. The compost bin was before Kickstarter and Crowdfunding really existed. It was 2008 or 2009, or maybe even before that, and so then there wasn’t really a crowdfunding thing. We did an email launch to our Clean Air Gardening customers is how we did it. It was really before Facebook advertising too or even before Facebook was that huge. So I love Kickstarter as a way to launch a product because one, you can immediately see if it gets attention and if people like it. But, I got to tell you, I don’t do Kickstarter the way most people do Kickstarter, because I’m pretty lazy and I like to do the 20-80 approach to just about everything I do, like what’s the 20% of work that I absolutely have to do to make it get off the ground. And then anything beyond that, sometimes I’ll do it if I get excited but often that I don’t. Then I just half-ass it and I’m okay with that.
And so, what I read about Kickstarter is that the biggest majority of funded Kickstarters are right around the $10,000 range. And so that’s the sweet spot that I aim for. I’d love to do a $1 million Kickstarter or even $100,000 Kickstarter but I just don’t have it in me to set up the marketing funnel and have my marketing plan set up in advance and know exactly what I’m going to do. It’s too detail-oriented for me, I just jump in and do it. I’ve done two successful Kickstarters and they were both right around $10,000.
One of them was a yo-yo, the Proto9, which has been a successful yo-yo since then. And the other one was a bike lock, it’s called a Mighty Click, and it’s a wearable bike lock that you can click it around your waist, you don’t lock it around your waist, because that would be dangerous. And so it has a belt, sort of like the belt you would have on a backpack. It clips and it unclips and it has a little pocket where you can keep your keys in there. It has a reflective thing on the back, so if you’re riding at dusk, it lights up around your waist. And you carry it around your waist so it’s a good center of gravity thing.
And I was super excited about that one and the Kickstarter did pretty well, but the product has been a dud since then on Amazon and I’m still sitting on my first production run. The Kickstarter was successful enough that it paid for most of the production run so I’m not in the hole but I’m still sitting on a lot of inventory and it just hasn’t been a consistent seller like I was hoping it was going to be.
Andrew: On Amazon, we’re part of a mastermind together, Lars, and you’re always encouraging people and pushing people in there to get on Amazon, get on Amazon, and it’s something you have a ton of experience with and have done really well on. And undoubtedly, three or four years ago, there was a crazy amount of opportunity and I still think there is, but how much do you think of opportunity on Amazon is left? What’s the saturation versus the opportunity ratio? Because things are getting more competitive, people are still in the listings. How do you see those two, kind of a saturation versus opportunity today in 2016?
Lars: Well, I feel like Amazon, it’s hard, and it’s rapidly changing, and it’s ultra-competitive. And here’s the issue. I read some article, what, in December of 2015, that was like, “Amazon already has captured about 50% of all e-commerce. So if you’re not on Amazon, guess what? You just gave up half your potential customers. So you sort of have to have an Amazon plan of some sort, and if it’s not that you want to sell there, it’s, well, “What do I have that’s going to be successful even if it’s not there that can’t easily be substituted by something else that is on Amazon because I refuse to sell there?” And so, I think, yes, there’s definitely still opportunity on Amazon.
It’s just like anything else. What if you’re getting into e-commerce today? Well, e-commerce is a lot harder than it was 10 years ago or more than 15 years ago when I started, where there was multiple search engines that mattered. It was easy to rank. There was no paper click ads so you didn’t have to budget for anything really. It was you put up a webpage and you’re able to take money and it’s a real product. You sat back and made money. It was so easy in the beginning years and now that’s a lot harder too. So I think it’s just like anything else where, yes, it’s hard, but it also, unlike e-commerce, which is sometimes slow to start, you can launch on Amazon and pow! right out of the gates, you can sell a large number of items if you’ve got something that’s in demand.
Andrew: What’s been your most painful Amazon experience or story?
Lars: Honestly, I try not to even think about it that way because it’s too frustrating if you think about that way. I learned that the challenges of working with Amazon customers, Amazon customers, they want it, they wanted right now, they don’t care about any excuses. If they broke it, it’s still your fault, and you better help them, and you got to be nice about it, and you smile through the whole thing. And what I learned, realizing that you have to suck it up and lose money when somebody on Amazon is punishing you unfairly because they broke your product or whatever and you still have to help them and be nice to them, or they’ll leave you, one, a bad seller review and two, then they’ll leave a one-star product review on top of it.
And so, since changing my mindset where I think, “How can I just have over-the-top good customer service?” I discovered that people react really well to that. And maybe me thinking of these people as jerks that have broken my product and just want a free refund was causing me grief and stomachaches in the first place. And maybe it’s just somebody that, it broke, and maybe it really did break. And if you give them the benefit of the doubt and you help them, then they turn out to be pretty nice, most of the time. And I’ve taken away from that experience where I’ve changed the way that I treat my own customers. Especially with yo-yos, there’s a big issue with, 10-year-old kid buys a $100 yo-yo and immediately breaks it because they’re fine pieces of equipment. You can over-tighten them and break them. There’s any number of ways that you can break a $100 yo-yo. And these kids would get them and instantly break them.
And then, well, we weren’t going to refund their money or help them, we would to say, “Well, sorry you broke your yo-yo,” and people get really mad and they will definitely never buy from you again. But that’s the way all the yo-yo stores do it because it’s just too expensive to take the loss. But since then, we’ve been easier on these people and we haven’t sent it back in and, well, we repair yo-yos for free and then sometimes we actually replace the yo-yo when it was somebody’s fault, even though it’s expensive for us and we lose money on it. And that’s helped us. And so, I think you just have to take it from a different mindset and accept the pain and know that it’s making you grow as a person.
Andrew: On the yo-yo vein of great service through Yo-yo Play, you had a story one time in the forum about hand-delivering a yo-yo, right? That’s such a cool story. Can you just share that?
Lars: Well, it was Christmas, that’s our busiest time of the year for yo-yos because most of these kids that want a yo-yo, their parents are never going to buy them a $100 yo-yo or $150 hundred yo-yo except for Christmas. They’ve been waiting all year and they finally get it. And so we sell our high-dollar items and our sales take off because toys go crazy for Christmas anyway. So anyway, this guy that was local ordered some expensive yo-yo stuff, it was probably at least a $200 order, and he ordered it overnight, which was going to be 20 bucks or something. But we noticed that he was in Arlington, which is where one of our employees lived. He ordered it like 1:00 in the afternoon, and this guy that lives in Arlington, he works from 6:00 in the morning until 2:00, he goes home. So I thought, “Let’s just take it right to his house right now. It will be like the coolest, weirdest thing to have us just show up at his door with his yo-yo three hours after he ordered it.”
Andrew: Take that, Amazon drones.
Lars: Yeah. Exactly. And this was before Amazon Now, so Amazon probably copied that from us. Yeah, it was awesome. He was totally impressed and it was fun. And I doubt that opportunity will ever come up again, but it was a good one.
Andrew: Oh, man. That’s a great testimony, we’ll put it on the website. Then you’ll be able to replicate, that’s a cool story. Lars, in our community, you’ve got the all-time record for number of upvotes on comments, all-time top contributor. And apart from a lot of it, the really super valuable insights in terms of everything from Amazon to importing that you provide. What you’re really well known for and I love is that you uncover some of these really interesting stories and gems from all over the e-commerce and just internet landscape. And in closing, one thing I wanted to do is do a little trivia with you. I think that you’ve been a member almost since the beginning, if not since the beginning, and wanted to go through and see how good your memory is. I’ve got five different things here that you may or may not have shared in terms of content and stories. And I want to see if you can remember which ones you’ve actually shared and which ones you haven’t. So it’s either a true, yes, you shared it, or a false, “No, I didn’t.” So, are you up for playing along?
Lars: Yeah. I wonder how terribly I’m about to do here but I’ll try it.
Andrew: All right. Awesome. So the first one. Did you or did you not share a story about a guy who decided to go roller-skating for 15 years?
Lars: Yes. I love that story so much. I still think about that story even today.
Andrew: This is the guy that, well, he just decided to go live in California and just roller-skate up and down the boardwalk, is that what he did?
Lars: Yeah, and it’s not roller-skating. He does this weird thing where he’s on roller blades and then he leans forward a certain way and he coasts with his leg, one leg out behind them or something. And it puts him into this weird state of flow is the way he describes it and it’s what makes him happy. And he does it all day long. He used to be a surgeon or a doctor. This is not just some weirdo guy, he was a super successful person. And he has this little tiny apartment now on the boardwalk, somewhere in California, and that’s what he does all day. And people just think he’s a weird homeless guy but he’s not. I don’t know what he is, but it’s the coolest story, that you find the thing that really floats your boat and then you just give up everything to do it.
Andrew: Yeah, crazy. And we’ll link up to all of these in the community if you’re a member so you can go back and see the originals. All right, number two. Did you or did you not share a story about a teen who makes $5 million a year on YouTube dressing up as Disney characters?
Lars: Dressing as Disney characters? No, I don’t think I did.
Andrew: Nice. Correct. It’s actually a little sneaky one. The actual story was about a teen who made $5 million a year unboxing Disney toys on YouTube, which is just phenomenal. Number three. Did you or were you or were you not shocked about what your cleaning lady’s car looked like?
Lars: Yeah. She showed up in a BMW 5 series when I was driving an older beat-up Subaru Outback. That’s what you drive too, isn’t it?
Andrew: Yeah. Although I looked at your Suba. Your Suba looked pretty sweet compared to mine. I was like, “Man!” I’ve got this 1997 Subaru that I’ve had forever. It was one of my first cars. Yeah, it’s been around for a while and I can’t get rid of it. And my wife hates me for making us keep it, but yeah, I do. So that was a true one. That was a really funny one that cracked me up. Number four, were you or were you not talking about how you’d really like to get a phone with no GPS so that the feds can’t track you around the country as you move about?
Lars: I don’t know. I’m kind of weird and so that sounds like something weird and paranoid that I would say but I don’t think I said that, no.
Andrew: Oh, nice. You didn’t, I just made that up.
Lars: I was thinking, “I don’t let on that I’m that paranoid, do I?” I should have just said no.
Andrew: You’re like, “Mm-hmm, that sounds like me, although I don’t remember it.” So it was fun. All right, so the final one. Did you or did you not post a story about a guy who gave away $40,000 in free products because he misconfigured his Amazon coupon code?
Lars: Yes. And I shared that story as a warning to everybody because, in fact, setting up Amazon coupon codes, they call it the checkbox of death or something, where if you forget to unclick it, it shares the coupon code to everyone publicly. And the guy did some like thing where he gave out this giant discount to a guy because it was to replace a product over the weekend or something and it made it public. They cleaned out their entire FBA inventory. And the worst part for that guy is he was an employee who worked for somebody else, it wasn’t even his own stuff. I don’t know if it’s good or bad. I think I would go crazy if an employee did that. I don’t how I’d handle it. But then on the other hand, I would think, “What if I did that to somebody else? That just seems so awful”.
Andrew: What do you do? Do you reimburse them for the $40,000 in product? Yeah. That’s, from an owner’s perspective, yeah, that’s a terrible decision to have to make.
Lars: As the owner, I don’t think you can make them reimburse you. When your employee makes a mistake like that, I think you just suck it up.
Andrew: No, yeah. You do. But think it through…
Lars: I don’t think you can accept it even if they try to pay you back.
Andrew: Yeah, oh that would just be an awful situation to deal with. But Lars, you got five for five. Well done on the memory, some of these going back two, three years. I thought for sure I’d catch you up on one, but you nailed it. Perfect score.
Lars: I spend a lot of time on the forum because that’s how I prevent myself from ever doing any work. I put a lot of mental effort into your forum. It keeps me quite busy.
Andrew: I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it, Lars. Like I’d mentioned, you’ve been our top contributor in all-time history for the community in terms of upvotes. And yeah, it’s a travesty it’s taken us this long to get you on the podcast. And yeah, thanks for everything you’ve added in the community as well as for coming on the show today to talk. It’s been fun to catch up.
Lars: Thank you. One last thing I’d like to say, I was joking about wasting time there because I do love to go and read things there, but I got to say that I don’t use any other forums. I’m not, like, a forum guy, and I sort of stumbled onto your forum right in the very beginning when there were hardly any numbers. And I got in there and, man, it was like I found my people. It’s all people like me that have e-commerce businesses, that have the same problems, and they’re dealing with the same software issues and employment and everything. I can ask any question and there’s always at least five people that have had the same problem and figured out how to solve it. And it’s the most useful thing in the world and I am so thankful that you put together this forum and that I was somehow willing to try one out, because I wasn’t really into forums, and it’s been so great for me.
Andrew: Well, thanks. That’s really cool to hear, especially coming from you and it’s been fun. You talk about finding your people, that’s the whole reason we ended up starting in the first place because, yeah, we’re a rare breed that’s focused on these all sorts of random things online and how these whole businesses…and it’s been a lot of fun and it’s been a pleasure having you in there and honestly, it wouldn’t be the same without the contributions you’ve made, so thank you.
Andrew: All right. Lars, it’s been good chatting. Thanks so much. We’ll have to do this in another three, four years and see what other awesome crazy stories we’ll quiz you on from the last couple of years. Thanks so much.
Lars: All right, thank you.
Andrew: Want to connect with and learn from other proven eCommerce entrepreneurs? Join us in the eCommerceFuel private community. It’s our tight-knit vetted group for store owners with at least a quarter million dollars in annual sales. You can learn more and apply for membership at eCommerceFuel.com. Thanks so much to our podcast producer, Laura Serino, for all of her hard work in making this show possible and to you for tuning in. Thank you for listening. That will do it for this week, but looking forward to seeing you again next Friday.